Why are teachers being allowed to use AI to grade papers, without actually reading it, but students get in trouble for generating it, without actually writing it?
Serious replies only :closed-ai:
Like seriously. Isn't this ironic?
Edit because this is blowing up.
I'm not a student, or teacher.
I'm just wondering why teachers and students can't work together using AI , and is has to be this "taboo" thing.
That's at least what I have observed from the outside looking in.
All of you 100% missed my point!
"I feel the child is getting short changed on both ends. By generating papers with chatGPT, and having their paper graded by chatGPT, you never actually get a humans opinion on your work."
I really had the child's best interest in mind but you all are so fast to attack someone.... Jesus. You people who don't want healthy discourse are the problem.
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Ha, I’m a professor and I used it last week to write assignment directions. I had to clean it up after the fact, but I was very impressed. I think you’ll end up seeing college professors try to incorporate it. Something like, use ChatGPT to write two summaries, compare the results and decide on the stronger arguments, etc. it’s not going anywhere.
It’s a new tool. We are just discovering best usages. I am starting to use it at work and it is powerful for search as well. I think everyone will use aspects of it at some point.
It’s good at proofing emails too, or making them sound more professional.
There's a bunch of jokes that all professional communication will start using chat gpt as a middleman soon. Pass in a bullet point list on one end to be turned into an email, and then summarise the email into bullet points again at the other end.
I already do. I have a writing degree, and I still proof the output, but it is already saving time for me.
Yes, it is fun to instruct it to change the tone. And see how it rewrites it.
Once I wrote out an email to my boss where I wanted to just tear into all the stupid decisions he made and handed it to ChatGPT to "make it professional." It mostly just berated me for how unprofessional it was to call my boss a fucking idiot for paying retail prices on hardware and firing all our best employees. I think the AI was sipping the kool-aid that day.
I'm currently writing my work self evaluation in the tone of Abe Lincoln
Yes, I helped my partner improve his thank you notes after job interviews by running them through GPT.
At first I thought the same thing. But as I used it multiple times, I realized I just sounded like an AI produced the email. And that everyone else’s emails would sound the same. Regardless of “changing the tone.” I feel like GPT is like auto tune. At first it’s really cool bc you can’t miss a note, after a while it becomes generic and to the point where you just want to turn it off… but then everyone is using auto tune, and we are worse off in general.
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I asked this morning how many nuclear powered aircraft carriers are active in the world. It won't include the French one unless you point it out, even though it "knows" it is nuclear powered. Then, later, it gets the answer wrong again.
It's still great at formatting answers, but the accuracy is sketchy.
I found this too! Summarizes science correctly but the references - really authors in the field, real journals, but made up titles and doi s.
I saw one for my (quite niche) field, the references had all the right names but not in the write groupings - I know there is no way some of the authors have ever published together!
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it's like when my math teacher used to tell me you won't always have a calculator in your back pocket... suckerrr
The spirit behind that statement still is true though. Just because you have a tool that can help you take a shortcut doesn't mean it's not important to understand what the tool is doing.
Spell check exists and it's my students use it, but they still need to know more or less how a word is spelled otherwise spell check has no clue what they're trying to write and they still have to know how to put together complete sentences and analyze text.
AI will be a tool students can use, but should not until they understand and possess the underlying skills.
Assignments just need to be longer start teaching kids how to use these tools that will fundamentally change their lives instead of punishing them because the institutions aren’t changing rapidly enough in the past to keep up with our rapidly evolving society. We need new standards of achievement and new occupations and course material. We can now generate new course material at lightening fast past so we need to start exploring. The first country to really grasp this and start incorporating it is going to advance the fastest. Ai is like an accelerator. Things are about to start changing every time we blink.
I can't wait for the unholy fusion of Wolphram Alpha and ChatGPT. A search engine that can summarize results in plain English at a 6th grade (or whatever we're reading at these days) reading level would be fantastic. The sensationalist media might not be fully killed off, but it would have a pretty big chunk taken out of it. Unfortunately, every AI I've tried so far is really good at making up BS and really bad at spitting facts. I can see it coming out within the next 3 years or so though.
What you're struggling with is effectively a solved problem that's just missing the implementation. It'll be solved for end users by the end of the year.
Best uses
Best misuses
Best abuses
Yep, you're helping discover them all!
I'm a programmer and I use it to code. The skill comes in in the cleanup always, it gets you most of the way there but never 100%
I use it too but I cant imagine using it to learn to code, I imagine people would copy most of the code and then everything would be abstraction to them
I'm learning programming right now and ChatGPT 4 is extremely useful for helping me learn.
If I ask it to write the code for me, it's very hit and miss, and I need to be extremely specific with my prompts for that to be useful. As a beginner, I'm not good enough to recognize bad code or create specific enough prompts, so I generally don't use it to make code for me.
But if I ask it to explain concepts for me and put it into context with what I'm trying to achieve? Fantastic answers.
It's absolutely amazing at showing examples and using analogies, which are the two best ways to learn. I should know a thing or two about that since I'm a teacher.
Imo, this is the best use I've found for chatGPT. Interactive textbook for music theory studies.
It depends on how serious someone is about learning. I would have loved access to a 'tutor' at all times when I was learning to program.
I can see it being useful to ask it “why isn’t this … working” other than “how do I make ….”
This shit is amazing for learning how to code and even the applicable math when doing so. I have it teach me new concepts all the time including design patterns, calculations, etc
Edit: you just gotta ask it the right leading questions
I’ve also used it for assignments and syllabi. I think I can speak for most academics when I say that we are simply trying to avoid creating a generation of students who’ve not developed critical thinking skills. I think it’s important to remember that everyone, including professors, are still figuring out what the role of AI is going to be in our classrooms, laboratories and studios
"avoid creating a generation of students who've not developed critical thinking skills." Hmmmm, I think you may be at least 50 years too late on this. Maybe longer. Call me a cynic, but I had to re-learn almost everything I was ever taught in high-school and in most of my college courses as well. I was never taught finance, real history, economics, or philosophy until I specifically sought them out, and even then the college courses on those subjects are rife with dogmatic and unscientific conclusions which are taught by rote, instead of being allowed to critically examine the axioms and figure out how those conclusions were derived. Only Mathematics stands out as the one subject that the radically reductionist, materialist, relativist sophistry has yet to infiltrate and destroy. Math and logic. The only saving grace. The Prussian Model of schooling to create worker drones instead of thinkers has worked perfectly.
Yeah, agreed. I'm not sure how much I learned watching a professor go over Power Point Presentations then doing multiple choice scan-tron tests for four years to get the paper I needed (Sociology Degree from a State University) to start a career where I actually learned things (government work). I did a lot of mental regurgitation and no critical thinking.
this is by design, at least in America. despite all the lip service by everyone stressing "critical thinking" people in power specifically do not want the public to be capable of critical thinking. this is how crazy anti-science lunatic conspiracy theorists get elected to power.
Evaluation and critique are significant critical thinking skills. In one of my college classes the professor required that each of us prepare a paper and then read at least part of it in class. One of the students couldn't even pronounce the words that he had in his paper. There are a number of ways of checking on a student's work.
Lol, I had plenty of papers back in college where I couldn't pronounce some of the words I used. Doesn't mean I cheated or didn't understand what the word meant.
Exactly. Someone who reads a lot may have seen a word many times and understand it well but never heard it spoken.
I think it's a difference in fundamentals.
The goal of being a student is to learn the materials. The goal of being a teacher is to ensure the student learns the materials.
While one could say that ChatGPT may hinder a student's ability to learn the material, it may have little negative effect on a teacher's assurance the student has learned.
In other words, ChatGPT may defeat the purpose for students. For teachers, it may contribute to their purpose.
I also don't know many professors who use AI to grade papers without reading them. They probably use plagiarism checkers, but those don't grade papers. I'm not sure AI is to the point where it can handle the immense amount of small judgments that go into evaluating whether it matches the prompt, if it deviates in productive or unproductive ways, and whether or it demonstrates mastery or a topic and or writing.
I agree that ChatGPT is a tool, and that educators need to think about what the purpose of writing is nowadays. That being said, most students that I've seen try to use it to avoid work rather than to actually facilitate improving as a writer.
The real answer to OP's question is: "Because."
I like that. There is nothing wrong with using chat gpt. My problem is how we view the use of chat gpt. Did we forget that we've copied others' work for years? All chat gpt does compile the data for faster responses.
FTFY
Professors and teachers are famously behind the curve of every technological advancement. Here in Germany I'd put the average teacher behind by at least 1 decade. Like tablets in schools are still not common and if they're available they're for very rare occasions, because the books are way too outdated and I'm talking really outdated. I was inspecting a school 3 years ago and they had HISTORY books where the Berlin wall was still a thing. I mean...sorry but that's just unacceptable.
The point of learning isn’t to pass a test or write an essay. The point of learning is to exercise your brain the way you’d exercise a muscle. Unless you want to grow up with zero analytical or critical thinking skills, it’s really important that you learn how to engage with things like art, literature, history, research and science. Especially as we move into a world where it’ll be really, really easy to falsely claim data and even events.
A big part of learning is being critical, it’s teaching you to search for truth and analyze your surroundings. It also helps teach you to differentiate yourself from what you’re studying in order to remove bias and be more objective by applying a self-critical lens.
These are all skills you develop from Kindergarten all the way through college. That’s partly why you learn so many “useless” things, because it’s mostly about helping your brain develop and teaching you how to engage with the world.
The teacher is just there to do a job and handle a work load. They are there to verify that the student is learning what they need to as mandated by the government and school board.
Ideally, a teacher would be a thought partner and mentor, to help guide and facilitate your ideas, learning development or research. Sadly, this isn’t the case for most teachers.
Regardless, because what you’re doing is important for your development, you need to do the actual work.
It's like going to the gym and let a robot do the weight lifting.
Such a perfect analogy.
Yep. You didn't put in any effort and, therefore, will not gain any muscle mass.
If the gym is staffed by robots, why can't I go work out by having a robot lift weights for me?
More importantly the gym is in such a shit shape, the robots are out-dated and sometimes there's even other health hazards or rogue robots shooting up the place lol
Oh and you're forced to go there anyways, y'know
Awesome reply. This also works for answering why students have to learn things like algebra or geometry that they'll never use in daily life. It's like athletes running on a treadmill or musicians learning scales. It's practice.
It teaches them logic. Math can be applied in non math situations, even if just subconsciously
Seriously! It's really unfortunate when you meet people without really any logical reasoning abilities. Education is so freaking important.
Math is also a cumulative skill. It's kind of hard to do algebra if you don't understand basic math, and it's hard to do higher math if you don't understand algebra.
Also a lot of would-be "game designers" get really upset when they find out how important calculus is in computer graphics.
Math, physics, chemistry, language, philosophy, political science, psychology, these are all things that have day to day use and are the absolute foundation of way more careers than people have any idea about.
Starting to see all education as a means to an end has led us down a bad path. Education is the purpose of education. Application can come way later.
I mean, also sometimes you need algebra and geometry.
Uhm, I beg your pardon? You might not sit down and write down a curve discussion later on, but there are so many real life examples where you apply the theories you have learned in school ... or at least should've learnt ... I know it really depends on the teacher whether they teach you problem solving or they just sit you in front of a bunch of text book problems.
Without algebra and geometry you will run into problems doing home renovations, calculating the paint and tiles needed to cover walls and floors, how and where to measure which and to do what cuts. If you have a garden, you will have an easier way distributing soil and fertilizer, irrigation, etc. Without algebra you will have a hard time doing your finances, or even simple things as adapting recipes. If you go outdoors and try to navigate with a compass and map, you'll need geometry. The examples are endless
very well said
Likely written by ChatGPT. /s
That's the entire American K - 12 education system in a nutshell.
Yup, and I strongly disagree with that. The current education system is mostly about creating workers that can operate within a 9 - 5 and will submit to authority.
The problem with that, is that our current economic structure is crumbling. So, now we have a bunch of kids in a system that prepares them to work, and they know that this preparation is pointless.
The only cure for that is to return to true education and learning. I’m which you learn to exercise your mind and strengthen your critical skills. Fortunately, that’s the core of most humanities programs, even at a HS level.
As one of the founders of the US education system, Rockefeller, said it best “ I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers.”
Yup ^ doing things that discourage you to think is actually of benefit to the education system. If you’re teacher actually wants you to write and analyze, then that’s a good teacher, not a red flag.
I was wondering recently - is this system actually necessary? I mean it seem logical that the society has to be split into workers and authority as it was like that in every society before and it works similarly in the nature - look ants.
To me the system is radically brutal for the 90%+ of individual and it sucks but the question is - is it even viable to think different? In my understanding universities were the solution to the problem of inherited jobs and were essentially made to split the workers from the intellectuals organically. To bad it just made the rat race harder and now everybody has to have a college degree, otherwise they are considered "stupid".
The trouble is measurement of how well a student has understood the material at scale. If you can come up with an auditable, scalable method of measurement of education to replace standardized testing, you will make a million or two.
Keyword auditable, because teachers have financial incentive to show good grades, and are just as prone to grade-adjustment corruption in search of funding for their schools as anyone.
You’ve basically just described the current money race within the field of education ^ there are a lot of startups trying to do exactly this.
Literally this like I learned jack shit in school and had very high marks because I just wrote essays and passed tests.
Right this is like asking why a TA can grade papers but the student can’t pay someone to write their papers.
I guess my university experience was different. The professors did not encourage us to be critical of their theories, merely to recite them back come test time.
You should get your money back.
When I taught at university I had over 900 students a term. There's not enough time in the day to read that many barely understandable essays. I had essays that were so badly written that I couldnt even critique them because they didn't say anything.
I didn’t attend college. When my daughter attended I would glance at her peer’s essays and work and was appalled at grammatical and logic mistakes. And frankly unreadability.
Eye opening.
Where are teachers using AI to grade papers?
I’m a high school teacher and have heard of AI giving feedback to student prompts with some programs but not any on grading papers.
I teach at a university and I think if I did this I would be fired lol
Yeah sending student data to a third party, and generating grades that I potentially can't justify. I'll pass.
Right, the answer is “they aren’t, and if you could prove they are they’d probably get fired”.
I bet a student got caught or watched the South Park episode on chatGPT lol
For real. This is a non-issue. I asked it today, out of curiosity, to make a multiple choice quiz for House of Usher and there were a few mistakes. I really doubt a bunch of teachers are having AI grade all of their shit.
I ran a couple of assignments through AI - purely out of curiosity, and after I'd graded them myself. Thought it would be interesting to see if it agreed with me. I still got flak from my colleagues when I mentioned I'd done this. Maybe other institutions are different, but AI use by teachers is certainly not condoned here.
Honestly students should start using AI to grade their own papers, make the improvements needed, and do that before turning in the actual paper.
I absolutely will be doing this. Going into my sophomore year next year, used to be an all A student before highschool, but have gotten B's in at least 2 of my classes each quarter this year because of my heavier workload discouraging me from really going back and looking over all of my answers to everything.
Some guy used ai to explain how this post is a pretty poorly written argument under another comment and I feel like seeing how much detail the ai went into makes me want to use it next school year when I'll be taking even more complex and long ap and honors classes than I have this year. Hoping it'll be a good thing rather than a distraction
Remember to use GPTZero so you don’t get flagged for ai-generation
gptzero isnt exactly accurate
I am a PT adjunct professor at a nearby university. I do not use AI at all in grading students' work. I spend copious amounts of time reviewing and grading content, grammar, syntax, etc. and provide students with specific, personalized feedback along where to find how to correct their writing errors in the APA Manual. Yes, it takes a lot of my time, but it is my job and my students benefit enormously.
It's hard to remember, sometimes, but the jobs of "teacher" and "student" are actually different jobs.
OP should write an essay on it and ask chatgpt to grade it.
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Savage
You know this is the first thing I've implicitly trusted from ChatGPT with no further examination, solid
Love this
Love you
This was worth coming into the comments on this post all by itself. Thank you
“Lack of coherence” was my favorite part.
Shit, if thats the case being a student is the worst job I've ever had. $50,000 in debt and an STD to boot.
I don’t think STDs come with the job cowboy
OP is a child, has no concept of what the purpose of education is
Can someone provide a source to show where this is happening?
I don't know how a teacher would use AI to grade papers today. Taking aside the measure of grade appropriateness, AIs can't yet judge the context of the class, the expectations of source material, the relevance of the paper to the course, or a dozen other parameters other than pure mechanics.
I think it'd be interesting if they were using grammarly to do a quick scan of syntax, but I'd like to see context here.
OK, here comes a teaching secret:
An experienced teacher can read the intro, a body paragraph, and the conclusion in about one minute and have a good idea on the quality of the essay.
Where AI is useful, is it can give detailed feedback which a student isn’t normally going to get from a teacher who has 150 essays to grade. Would I love to give that kind of feedback? You bet. But I don’t have 45 minutes to grade one essay when my admin expects grades to be updated every Friday.
What you should be asking is: why am I not running my essay through AI as a peer editing tool before turning it in?
As always, the expectations of a teacher and student are completely different. A certified teacher has already proven their ability and knowledge through state certified tests. A student is expected to prove their mastery of the content. A student is not the same as a teacher, and it’s arrogant and inaccurate to think they are.
The students need to prove their own capabilities on the subject matter. The teachers only need to validate the students’ performance.
One is there to learn and then prove it. The other is just doing their job.
Your comment encapsulates so much of what is wrong with modern education.
Grading and testing should be tools for the teacher to evaluate their own performance. The teacher should be reading the papers and looking for mistake trends and knowledge gaps among their students and then addressing them in their teaching.
Edit: I fully agree that AI can make that task easier for the teacher. My comment was directed at the argument that it's a student's job to learn and a teacher's job to provide grades. AI can and will be a powerful tool for teachers to teach more effectively. Until it replaced them, anyway.
If only there was time for this feedback cycle to play out.
What if we could somehow make teachers 10x more efficient at grading papers so that they can focus on identifying trends in the low performers?
Maybe cranking out papers isn’t the ideal form of education.
Isn’t that what chatgpt does? Like it gives feedback and corrections and suggestions to improve. The teacher can check and verify before giving it back to the student so they know hat the gaps are for that kid.
Having read numerous terrible ‘reports’, this seems much more efficient and helpful to everyone.
Of the things wrong with education, teachers not doing enough work outside of class is not very high on the list, IMO. What you’re saying sounds great, but there needs to be more teachers per school to take on that workload.
I would argue ai would actually make that easier.
... or they could have Chat GPT do it for them..
That's a bold statement. Your lack of foresight—to assume ChatGPT can't help with evaluating student performance—is even bolder. You could prompt ChatGPT to look for overarching or common mistakes in each essay for personalized advice; then, gather up all of the individual commends and ask for aggregate advice for the entire class. I'm not saying this workflow would be perfect right now, but you shouldn't brush off the possibility.
They aren't brushing it off. They're saying that this:
... is false.
Maybe ask GPT to write you a paper on irony, but actually read it
Irony is a literary device that is used to create a sense of contradiction or incongruity between what is expected and what actually occurs. It is a powerful tool that can be used to convey a wide range of emotions and ideas, from humor to sadness, from criticism to praise. In this paper, we will explore the various types of irony, their effects, and how they are used in literature, media, and everyday life.
Types of Irony
There are three main types of irony: verbal irony, situational irony, and dramatic irony.
Verbal irony occurs when someone says something but means the opposite. It can be used to express sarcasm, humor, or criticism. For example, if someone says "What a lovely day" during a thunderstorm, they are using verbal irony to express the opposite of what they actually mean.
Situational irony occurs when something happens that is the opposite of what was expected. This type of irony can be used to create tension or surprise. For example, if a fire station burns down, that is situational irony because it is unexpected.
Dramatic irony occurs when the audience knows something that the characters do not. This type of irony can be used to create tension or suspense. For example, in a horror movie, if the audience knows that the killer is hiding in the closet but the character does not, that is dramatic irony.
Effects of Irony
Irony can have a variety of effects on the reader or viewer. It can be used to create humor, to criticize society or individuals, to evoke emotions, or to highlight a theme or idea.
Humor is one of the most common effects of irony. Verbal irony, in particular, is often used to create humor because it involves saying something that is the opposite of what is expected. For example, if someone says "I love being stuck in traffic," that is funny because it is unexpected.
Irony can also be used to criticize society or individuals. Situational irony is often used to highlight hypocrisy or the absurdity of a situation. For example, if a politician who campaigned on an anti-corruption platform is later found to be corrupt, that is situational irony.
Irony can evoke a wide range of emotions, from sadness to anger to joy. It is often used in literature and media to create a sense of pathos or to evoke sympathy for a character or situation. For example, if a character in a story dies just as they are about to achieve their dreams, that is dramatic irony that can evoke sadness in the reader or viewer.
Finally, irony can be used to highlight a theme or idea. For example, if a story about environmental destruction ends with a scene of a beautiful sunset, that is situational irony that can highlight the theme of the fragility of nature.
Irony in Literature, Media, and Everyday Life
Irony is used extensively in literature and media. It is a powerful tool that can be used to create a wide range of effects, from humor to tragedy. Some of the most famous examples of irony in literature include the ending of O. Henry's "The Gift of the Magi," in which a couple each sacrifices their most prized possession to buy a gift for the other, only to find that the gifts are now useless; and the famous opening line of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, in which she writes "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife."
Irony is also a common feature of everyday life. It is often used in conversation to create humor or to express criticism. For example, if someone says "Thanks for nothing" sarcastically when someone fails to help them, that is verbal irony.
Conclusion
Irony is a powerful
At least ask ChatGPT to shorten this monster of a reply, nobody is gonna read that lol
"ChatGPT, write me a paper"
"No 7-8 paragraphs is too much"
lmao
continue where you left off
Not really. Teachers don't grade papers for the same reason students write the papers.
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Wife is an English teacher and kids are using ChatGPT constantly for their essays. They are getting caught because they aren’t even reading what is being output, lol. “As an AI model”..
Also, teachers aren’t using ChatGPT to identify if something is written by AI. It’s a separate program. It’s also not 100% and teachers know this. If a paper is flagged, they notify the student and request a meeting. 9 times out of 10 the teachers are just inquiring and the students end up outing themselves as having cheated.
She doesn’t mind that AI is being utilized, only that these kids refuse to cite their work as such, and just want to be lazy and play on their phones all day (when they aren’t setting fires to the bathrooms). No way in hell would I ever want to be a teacher, and she’s at a ‘good’ school…
You seem to be fundamentally missing the point of education
Found Alanis Morissette.
And no, none of that stuff was irony.
I think the irony is thinking AI is a replacement for English class while demonstrating that it clearly isn't.
Because the teachers are using it to get required work done, while the students are using it to circumvent putting in the reps to learn.
It’s like a body builder saying “if the gym staff get to use motorized carts to move the equipment around, why can’t I use motorized equipment to do the exercise reps for me?”
The whole scholastic system is designed to help the student get their reps. If we didn’t think that was helpful we could just disband the schools altogether and everybody stays home playing video games.
Edit: Now if you amend your question to “might it not be useful to learn to harness AI together in the learning process,” then the answer to that is absolutely
Great analogy. The participants work in the same building, but they aren't working towards the same goals.
I’m reminded of when I was a child and I told the teacher “I hate memorizing, why can’t I just use a calculator for this?” And her response was “you won’t have a calculator with you in the real world!”
Now I’m an engineer and I don’t use pencil at all for any math at all because it would be criminally inefficient.
Not saying students should not learn the topics. But it’s a tool that people need to learn to use because it’s not going anywhere.
I imagine AI systems of today will probably be a bit more impactful than the calculator.
It’s not ironic. Stay in school.
Yes, but also Don't Stay In School
Students only have to write “x” number of papers and teachers have to grade “x” number of papers times the number of students in their class(es). Student papers are also likely to be mind numbingly boring and the teacher is likely making the same exact comments on the majority of papers.
They are not grading to demonstrate their mastery of grading, whereas students are writing essays to demonstrate their mastery of writing.
Students are likely not using the time saved by having an AI write their paper to be productive or catch up on other work, whereas teachers can use (and need) that extra time to prepare for other parts of their job such as lectures.
I will bite. I teach high school English and was a tenured professor a small college before that. I have played around with ChatGPT and tried using it for grading.
The bot knows the six trait writing rubric. And is totally neutral. Exactly what standards based grading asks of us. I loaded in a student paper and asked it to grade it according the proficiency levels and provide justification for the grade. I asked it to provide overall suggestions for improvement. I then asked it to check the grammar identifying common grammar issues. Cite an example in the paper. Explain the rule. And rewrite the sentence.
I did find it lowballed the grade from what I would give as a final grade. But it did well on everything else precisely because it cited the paper and rubric and did a fine job identifying grammar issues and explaining the rules as well as rewriting the sentences. I would not be able to accomplish all of that for each paper that I read. In fact, at the high school level, teachers tend to focus on one or two aspects per paper (intro and thesis, for example) in part to be able to manage our time.
I do not think any teacher would just drop a paper in and let the bot grade. I had to develop a very significant prompt, I had to go through the paper and check the bot's work, and I would also relate the work to a student's prior work and growth as a writer.
In short, if I were to use this to actually grade papers in the future, it helps me help a student more than I would be able to in the past.
Also, I can ask the bot to do things like identify grammar issues that English Language Learners typically make, for example, instead of just taking the handbook and marking P1.2, etc, against the mistake. Again, it gives more than what I could possibly give per assignment and I still make the final call on the grade.
Could it be abused? Of course. But could it help in the long run if used properly, very much so.
I like this take a lot. As long as we go into it with a positive growth mentality, both students and teachers can be better.
Op, sorry for the some of the hate you getting here. But I agree to you to some extent. I believe teachers can consider giving Students access to LLM tools even while solving some papers/assignments. But a tool like chatgpt isn’t the way to do it. The idea is to augment their learning experience but not do the job for them. A tool like Chatgpt would do the latter and it defeats the purpose. I was particularly impressed by the tool khan academy came up with using chatgpt. The tool doesn’t give you the answer. It makes the user come up with the answer by making them think critically and reasoning out why the answer they come with has some logical issues. It’s a brilliant learning tool and I believe can also help out students who are weaker academically. I don’t think the goal should be to score as high as possible; the goal should be to learn as effectively as possible.
Not chatGPT specific, just software related. I was constantly losing marks with a teacher that for some reason never liked talking to me directly. She would just bash my writing style to the class and say that’s what loses marks. One classmate went running to her when I told him I didn’t understand how I was losing marks on great papers eventually. I knew they were tight at a certain point and he would tell her what I said, then I would get a straight, though petty, answer publicly and she did.
She told the class a couple minutes later, “you guys that program I told you about that edits your work for you, I use it to grade. It uses American spelling, so if you use Canadian spelling, you will lose marks.”
We live in freaking Canada.
Teachers should NOT use it to grade. I have used it to create a draft of my feedback to student writing after I have read their writing and formulated my own ideas. It allows me to provide useful feedback to class work about a week earlier than usual, which helps the students as much as it helps me.
But teachers are ultimately responsible and accountable for the grades they give and shouldn’t delegate that work to others, including AI.
I'm a teacher. I WISH some of my co-workers would use ChatGPT to grade and provide feedback for student work. It would be far more competent, fair, and helpful to students than what many of these "teachers" currently provide.
Speaking as a teacher, i'd never dream of using AI to mark a student paper, it totally defeats the point of our role
However, I do think you're right in that teachers and students are going to have to work together to figure out where AI sits in the Education space - this term I started to explore that, getting students to mark AI work against rubrics, re-write it, check the content for accuracy etc
Its a strange time in education, but AI isn't going anywhere, we need to adapt
This post is dumb if you think about it for more than 2 seconds
Honestly probably would result in fairer grading if everyone did it.
I think that a better metric to see if the text has been AI generated or not is to check the writing style - because AI engines usually have a specific writing style that they use - and fact check the data inside the text. If the data is correct, and it's still AI generated, then it's the same thing as if the student copied something from Wikipedia.
Students fact checking AI text themselves before sending it are just as intelligent and knowledgeable about a subject as people who write the whole thing themselves, in the same way that artists who use AI to help them make good original art, artists who use editing software, inpainting and other techniques to achieve a specific goal with whatever AI tool they use, are just as creative and talented artistically as artists who do not use AI.
pretty soon ai will be the students and the teachers. no one will be learning and no one will be working. what will all that free time go towards? playing video games and posting on social media? but the world is getting better. sure it is.
Who says teachers aren't reading it?
Also, teachers and students are not peers. We don't follow the same rules. Teachers went to college to get a degree, plus training. Many of them have a masters degree.
Also, ChatGPT has only been out for less than a year. Finding the best way to integrate it into lessons will take time. Expecting a new technology like this to be adopted right away isn't realistic.
Source: I am a teacher
100% agree with you. While some people may say the child is there to learn to think independently and the teacher is there to do a job, the teacher is responsible for setting a good example to their students
It's even worse for the students. I was accused of using AI to generate a discussion question response. Because the professor used some tool that claimed there was an 80% probability that I used AI to write it. The only evidence he had was the stupid tool that was wrong. I denied the accusation then the professor started grading my assignments very harshly because I could only assume he believed I was cheating. I usually get an A or a B. This class is the first time I have ever got a D in college. I earned my undergraduate degree and almost my whole graduate coursework with As and Bs.
Yeah I agree teachers should think about new ways to evaluate students, and maybe incorporate the use of new tools in their teaching. Of course explaining pitfalls and limits of llm and problems of privacy. But such things take time.
Imo, it’s just because it’s too new and we as a society are operating on the “old rules” of how school work was done before it became usable by the masses. I don’t think anyone at the moment has a real clear grasp at what learning/teaching will really look like with AI existing. So for the time being we have to use want we know works to determine if students are learning the material.
I think there will be a shift sooner rather than later as we accept that it is fundamentally changing how we do things. We really don’t have a choice.
I think ultimately this direction will lead to us re-defining what "education" is. That's really the crux of this, is education defined as "The ability to regergitate information read from a textbook", or is education defined as "The process by which you are taught the practical usage and nuances of a thing".
that's going to be the deciding factor in this. If we decide to embrace or tollerate AI then the latter definition inherently becomes the motivation. While if we embrace the first definition it becomes a method of further control for everyone involved.
I feel this needs meaningful deliberation from individuals much smarter and above my pay-grade. But I love the conversation.
FWIW, my daughter's college professor straight up told her to use it to rough draft a paper, some professors are okay with kids using it I guess.
My professor was PISSED when I pointed out she hadn't read my paper.
Students are there to learn
Teachers are there to guide.
Much better for teachers to spend more time guiding than grading
You have to learn how to do something before you use tools, plains and simple.
Very easy answer. Teaching is a job and like any job, you'd prefer the easier and more efficient ways to do it.
Learning to think critically is not simply about completing a task. Tests and assignments are meant to test your knowledge and comprehension, not simply how efficiently you can complete them.
Equating an adult profession to a child in an education system is a bit silly. You're only comparing them because of their proximity in society, not because they actually warrant a comparison.
Because modern education system is a scam.
The reason is because the assignment is meant to make the student think and engage with the material. The end.
If you don't think the subject should be taught, go complain to the school board or home school your kids.
Hard work is hard. Get over it.
That’s…that’s not what Irony means.
The students write to prove their knowledge, understanding, aptitude, etc in an area. They need to show their proficiency. Relying on an AI doesn’t show you’re proficient or understand anything besides you know how to use the AI, and maybe clean up a little after it. A useful skill, but not the areas being tested.
The teachers are just evaluating and grading it. They don’t need to prove anything. They aren’t the ones being tested. I think relying entirely on AI wouldn’t be reasonable, but using it to help take some of the burden off is perfectly sensible.
Teachers and students aren’t the same thing.
I think op is missing the entire point of learning, and i agree with the comments. Students don't develop actual skills from taking shortcuts. Grading is simply a part of a teacher's job, but that is not the main focus. I believe teachers need to focus on providing quality teaching first, and make sure the students actually take away some valuable lessons that would accompany them for the rest of their lives.
The answer to your question is pretty obvious.
Grading is a very low-value task that is very time consuming, which makes it a perfect candidate for automation. A teacher doesn’t learn much by grading papers.
On the other side, writing papers as a student helps you increase your skills in so many ways (research, reading, analysis, writing…). Moreover, it’s pretty much the only occasion that allows you to work on those skills during your life. And that applies to pretty much everything you do as a student. Leaving your tasks to AI will only make you stay behind as a human being.
I’m all for AI and I’m all for leaving it up to an individual as to whether they can use it or not. But if I was a student at this time, I would do things by myself. You’ll have plenty of occasions to use AI when you get out of school or in your personal life later on.
+: without a proper education, you probably won’t even know how to use AI efficiently.
It sucks at scoring essays.
The reason we don't want students to write their papers with ChatGPT is because we want the students to learn to write.
But just hear me out... maybe we should try to make the lives of teachers easier instead of scrutinizing them for using a tool that the rest of us are using to make our own jobs easier.
If 100% of people missed your point, you did a very bad job at explaining it. Maybe ChatGPT can help you better explain it.
Have you ever tried reading 180 versions of the same report in a row?
Cause teachers are not the ones being evaluated. Same with standardized testing- the computers scan it.
Having your work marked and graded by GPT gives consistency of grading and removes any unconscious bias. Students should welcome this change.
I think the answer to this is pretty obvious:
The goal of education is to get students to learn. Language transformers can’t learn for you, but they can grade your assignments.
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Why are parents allowed to be awake late night but their kids must sleep after their bedtime??? Isn’t that ironic? Really makes you think.
Teachers don’t do this.
because students need to actually LEARN what a teacher already know? Asking to chatgpt is not a way of it but for theacher is a tool to improve work
Because students supposed to learn how to write and that is the skill being graded. Using AI to write is a different task and skill. While grading is work, if it can be made easier with technology, why not?
Apparently with my university, they “grade” our work using a program. I’m handing in my dissertation on Thursday and getting results back in June.
You’re talking about 12k document and lines of code. How can someone mark my 12k paper that quick?
Because the child is there to learn how to do the thing, whereas the teacher doesn't have to (hopefully) learn to teach.
In a perfect world, AI grading papers would free up the teacher to have MORE time with the students, and teach them in a more interactive way. Whether or not this actually happens is up for debate, but I could see this being a reason why this type of thing is a "one way valve": learning to do a thing is not the same as having AI do the thing for you.
Using AI to evaluate/grade students' assignments can save teachers time, identify struggling students, and help teachers focus their attention on those students who need more support. However, it is important to note that AI should not be used as a replacement for teachers' own judgment and expertise. Teachers should still use their own knowledge and experience to make sure that students are learning and progressing. On the student side, it is important to first learn the material before using AI tools to complete assignments. AI tools can be used to make learning more experiential and engaging, but they should not be used as a substitute for learning the material. Students should still put in the effort to learn the material and understand the concepts. Ultimately, the goal of using AI in education is to improve student learning. By using AI to automate some tasks, teachers can free up time to focus on providing individualized support to students who need it. AI can also be used to create more engaging and interactive learning experiences for students. When used correctly, AI can be a valuable tool for improving student learning.
Look at my point of view y'all will understand why it makes sense.
I'm not a teacher though I'm an electric engineering student and this semester I've been using ChatGPT for college since the beginning of the year for a lot of things, even during class I've asked chatgpt to help me with the most random things.
It's an incredible tool without a doubt and it definitely will disrupt education, however at some point I've realized that ChatGPT got me "lazy" at doing some stuff, to some point I got a dependence of it during class.
I've realized that one day I needed to make an activity during class and my phone battery was like 2% so I made the activity without the chat assistance and at the beginning I was like "wow that sucks" but quickly I readapted and doing regular stuff without the assistance of AI was quite a liberating feeling
My point is, I'm a fully grown adult and have already passed the "metacognition phase" so I have already "learned to learn" and ChatGPT can serve me as a tool for education
But imagine a children where all their cognitive development relies on a tool where can digest everything for him, I'm not a pedagogue or a researcher in this area, but it will certainly generate a dependence in this kid on this tool, the kid will not learn to research himself
I believe that ai language models are an OUTSTANDING tool for education, and it will inevitably be a protagonist in education, however since we are dealing with children cognition we should be very cautious on what methods they should be applied.
Or I might be completely wrong and ignorant, maybe a tool that digests everything without the need of the student to practice his own research capabilities happens to be a better method. Even though caution is needed.
So we can judge that a couple mistakes or wrong information from the tool might be less damaging to a children, than a fully dependence on a tool on an early stages of cognitive development
You state this like it's a fact and that it's rampant.
Where exactly is this happening?
The problem is that it really turns the education system as we know it on its head. Education has two goals, one is obvious the second is more subtle. The first goal is knowledge, as knowledge is of the most value to the one endowed with it, the incentive to check if its being received serves another purpose. The filter. Education also serves to place value on human resources. With AI it becomes a completely different matter entirely to determine which humans are more valuable than others and therefore should have more access to resources.
Lazy teachers, who perhaps have no understanding about "AI" -- all the hype! -- don't realize how unreliable it is. How many students will get the flag due to glitches in the so-called "AI"?
On the other hand, I think classroom sizes are way too big, pushing 30 students -- maybe even more.
These AI's are bullshit generating machines.
Bullshit isn't necessarily bad, we need bullshit to grease the gears of civilization. But if your teacher is giving you assignments that ChatGPT can do, your teacher is not educating your teacher is bullshiting you.
These AI's are freeing us from the need to generate our own bullshit. We get to outsource that now. Its our job to bring the thumos, the spirit, the power that animates the bullshit and transforms it into something valuable.
Any work that can be done with ChatGPT should be done with ChatGPT. Teachers must learn that they are to educate thinkers, not bullshit generaters.
When calculators came to the classroom, there was outcry from teachers all over. Now its a required tool. AI is going in the same direction.
Because one act is laziness and the other is plagiarism.
Because teachers already graduated.
i can tell a 12 year old wrote this
Because being a teacher is a job whereas being a student is a learning experience. For a job the ends justify the means, but for a learning experience it doesn't
You probably could've found the answer yourself without asking the community. One person is doing a job, teaching young people... the other people need to learn and not just write stuff to pass a test.
The hardest part would be determining whether or not something is AI generated or not.
I'm hoping we all come to the collective realization we can just have the AI do all this busy work and leave us to roll in fields of grass with our dogs to fill the time instead.
Um cuz students actually need to learn lol the teacher just needs to get the thing graded as part of their job 😂
Because it's not their job to demonstrate that they've learned a skill.
This is the stupidest thing I’ve read in a long time.
This is idiotic. Grading papers isn’t something designed to teach the teacher anything, or demonstrate that the teacher learned what they were supposed to learn— it’s just a task that has to be done.
Not ironic or hypocritical. Students need to prove they are being educated. We can discuss the value of what they're learning until the cows come home, but that doesn't have much to do with what school is for. If a person is just going to cheat their way through it, then maybe we should look into selling degrees for $60k, and send the kids straight from Admissions to their graduation. We can do it all in Vegas, where the blueprint for this kind of thing already exists.
Thanks for bringing up this important issue. It's true that the use of AI to grade papers has become increasingly common in education, but it's also true that there are concerns about the potential impact on students. While AI can help teachers save time and improve the efficiency of grading, it's important to recognize that AI is not perfect and can't provide the same level of feedback as a human teacher. Additionally, there are concerns about the potential for bias in AI grading, which could disadvantage certain students.
On the other hand, when students use AI to generate papers, they are not engaging in the same process as when they write the paper themselves. This raises important questions about academic integrity and the value of education. Ultimately, it's important to strike a balance between using technology to enhance education and ensuring that students receive a high-quality education that prepares them for the future. Thanks for bringing up this thought-provoking topic and encouraging healthy discourse.
Because students are learning and are supposed to use their minds in that process. Professors are doing a job to help students learn in the most effective way they can. There is no irony here. Once you have earned your degree yourself, you can do whatever you want.
Because teachers are grown. We have lives and deserve the AI help. Kids are still learning. So they need practice.
Demonstrate you know something, then you can use AI all you want.
Same concept as using a calculator or a PC or any other time saving device where it’s important to understand how something works on your own so you learn to think instead of just learning how to use a tool.
Really good chance they never were reading it
I think we really need to ask ourselves what the purpose of education is in america. Because if it’s to prepare the student for the world ahead, then schools need to start incorporating AI into the curriculum instead of outright banning it. AI is the future and it’s important students get familiar with it if we are to prepare them for the world ahead.
As a student I hate when there are nonsensical or incorrect instructions. My nightmare scenario is that the AI says I should lose points because I didn't cover something that just wasn't in the book because the bot is confidently wrong
As a teacher who is overworked and underpaid any tool that gives me some semblance of a life back is a blessing
Your edit makes your title make more sense, while it makes sense for it to be more lenient for teachers to use ChatGPT, perhaps to see any obvious flaws, they should play a role in grading since that is their job.
In my previous semester, one of my professor made a whole paper using ChatGPT. He gave us about a week to solve that and he also allowed us that we can use any helping material available to us including the AI tools (except outright copying each other's works).
So, I personally benefitted a lot from that. I learnt many new concepts from that exam using YouTube and ChatGPT.
I think this is actually a good approach to handling this new age of AI instead of banning them. They are going to be a norm within years. So let's progress with the technology and improve our ways according to it.