r/VintageNBA

TIL about WNBA player Dearica Hamby averaging 20ppg and 11.4 rpg this season. The interesting part is she's a 30 year old player who in her previous nine seasons only averaged in double figures three times, topping at 13.0 ppg four years ago.

That made me wonder, is there an NBA player who had an similar career arc, that is who first averaged 20 points after turning 30 with only low scoring seasons up until that point?.

I do remember one season wonders like Dana Barros and Pervis Ellison but they averaged their lone 20 point season before turning 30.

Both teams reached the NBA Finals at their peak. Both teams were eliminated by Jordan’s Bulls upon getting there. Which of these teams do you think had the better 3 year stretch? I always felt like the Suns were a little more potent offensively while the Sonics had the edge defensively.

1992-93 Suns:

62-20 Record

Reached the NBA Finals before losing in 6 games to the Bulls

SRS of 6.27 (3rd)

OffRtg of 113.3 (1st); DefRtg of 106.7 (9th)

1993-94 Suns:

56-26 Record

Reached the semifinals before losing in 7 games to the Rockets

SRS of 4.68 (5th)

OffRtg of 111.7 (1st); DefRtg of 106.8 (16th)

1994-95 Suns:

59-23 Record

Reached the semifinals before losing in 7 games to the Rockets

SRS of 3.85 (6th)

OffRtg of 114.5 (3rd); DefRtg of 110.4 (19th)

1993-95 Accumulative Record: 177-69

1995-96 Sonics:

64-18 Record

Reached the NBA Finals before losing in 6 games to the Bulls

SRS of 7.40 (2nd)

OffRtg of 110.3 (8th); DefRtg of 102.1 (2nd)

1996-97 Sonics:

57-25 Record

Reached the Semifinals before losing in 7 games to the Rockets

SRS of 6.91 (3rd)

OffRtg of 111.2 (3rd); DefRtg of 102.7 (6th)

1997-98 Sonics:

61-21 Record

Reached the semifinals before losing in 5 games to the Lakers

SRS of 6.33 (3rd)

OffRtg of 111.6 (3rd); DefRtg of 103.6 (10th)

1995-98’ Accumulative Record: 182-64

So, I’m sure many know about the vastly different guidelines regarding offensive foul rules in the pre-merger era.

I don’t know of any official old-school rulebook to reference, but in essence - shot creation was far more difficult due to strictness regarding movement in a defender’s space. It’s why drawing charges was far easier and big men often had to maneuver around their defenders, rather than through them (like Shaq or Giannis).

Examples are Walt Bellamy getting called for an offensive foul or Frank Ramsey

What I want to know is - when did this rule change? As I watch through historical games, the rule seems to become noticeably less prevalent around the merger, and was practically non-existent by the late-80’s. I still see some lighter charges called throughout the 80’s compared to today’s game but the frequency and strictness is much lower.

Does anyone know of an official point where the Shaq-style shot creation became legal, or was it kind of like modern carrying rules (where it just silently became more and more lenient until it was suddenly normalized)?

I am curious as to why Robert Parish didn't receive All NBA selections for either defensive team or even 2nd All-NBA team.

Granted George Johnson (2nd Team Def) averaged the most blocks with 3.4bpg, Tree Rollins (not on a defensive team) averaged 2.9bpg and I am not gonna mention Kareem, we know what a defensive presence he was. But those 3 were the only ones who averaged more blocks than Robert Parish, however, Parish also averaged 1 steal per game. More than any of those 3 above. Of course it is not just those stats that define All-Defensive Teams. However, 2 of them (Kareem and George Johnson) both got a 1st and 2nd All-Defensive selection over Parish.

Parish also ranked 13th in defensive rebounding, Kareem (5th), Caldwell Jones (6th) are both the only 2 who got defensive selections who had more defensive rebounds. Not only was Parish 2nd in PER, 3rd in W/S and 4th in +/- (this makes me think he should be on an all-NBA team.) But he also ranked 5th in Def W/S, 4th in total rebound% and 3rd in block %.

I fail to see how the defensive anchor of the championship team doesn't get into either the 1st or 2nd All-Defensive Teams.

Hey legends, if anyone has any information on the very first NBA season (proper NBA) in 1949-50. Why was Bob Davies the only All-NBA team (1st) selected for the Rochester Royals? Granted he didn't only score, but he passed the ball around a lot. However, Bobby Wanzer played more games, had more W/S, better Off W/S and was far more efficient with percentages than Bob Davies, I feel like he should've at least got 2nd team all-NBA. Granted, I am only going off statistics as I can't find any novels or archived videos based on the first NBA season to use the "eye-test." However, I am confused how a player on the same team played either as good or potentially better, yet was criticized hugely.

7x All-NBA (3/3/1)

‘01 MVP (3x Top-5 voting, 7x Top-10)

11x All-Star (2x ASG MVP)

‘97 Rookie of the Year

1) Memories of Iverson have gotten so simplified so quickly, I’m afraid he’s little more than “an inefficient gunner who was fast and once stepped over Tyronn Lue” to many fans today. Iverson is difficult to summarize or explain with any amount of words, so I’ll start by listing some things he makes me think of: a) playing Ninja Gaiden as Sonic the Hedgehog, b) the intensity of a cornered wolverine on all-fight-no-flight mode, c) the unflinching persistence of Melville’s Bartleby, but at the opposite end of the kinetic energy spectrum, d) Iggy Pop’s early on-stage performances, e) the quick-twitch ballance of a squirrel, f) the numerous Tupac interviews that showed skeptical non-fans that his “thuggishness” belied a deep thoughtfulness, g) a kamikaze pilot, h) the unsettling gaze of a death row inmate on his final walk.

2) Iverson’s cultural significance was bigger and arguably more important than his on-court career. He didn’t “introduce” hip-hop culture and its aesthetic to the NBA, but he became the face of that part of the Venn diagram. AI stood out because of his cornrows, numerous tattoos, extra baggy wardrobe, flashy jewelry, and the “questionable shadiness” of some members of his entourage, plus the raw directness with which he spoke was not what the league higher-ups wanted from its most popular player. It didn’t help that his background was marked by four months in jail while in high school because of a high-profile bowling alley brawl, but any objective person can see in retrospect how racist and pointed the “investigation” into that event was.

Commissioner David Stern put a player dress code into place because of Iverson, and AI was an interesting litmus test of sorts for most of the top voices in the media or authority figures in the NBA (the vast majority of both groups being middle aged or older white guys) to exhibit how rigidly “old school” they really were. As a perpetual target–including by many referees–Iverson’s popularity rose even higher, and he became maybe the most fully embraced sports figure by black America since Muhammad Ali.

3) His desire to win cannot be questioned, as he seemed to be having an existential, life-or-death crisis every game. Iverson played through numerous awful injuries (he popularized the wearing of compression sleeves), and the grit and determination he demonstrated made his teammates try harder, a bigger accomplishment than he usually gets credit for. AI was listed at 6-ft-0 and 165 pounds–he was neither–yet he flew into the lane with reckless abandon, and his body paid the price. He was beloved by teammates and fans for this because his slight stature made him the ultimate underdog (plus for how league higher-ups seemed to despise him). The media got on Iverson for his lax practice habits, but he needed the rest because of his injuries and how hard he played in games; Bill Russell did the same thing, by the way.

The problem was that his desire to win appeared to manifest itself as him wanting to do it all. Iverson rarely trusted his teammates (Philly’s front office certainly didn’t do him any favors), so he saw the path to victory as going directly through himself. It’s like he was thinking, “I’m a great scorer, so I should score as much as possible. I’m a great ball thief, so I should go for every steal.” It was hard for Iverson to see past this mentality, similar to a football defensive end who goes all out to rush the QB every play no matter what the situation or team scheme, so AI’s style of play often didn’t align itself with the best path to team glory, even if he thought it did.

4) Iverson was drafted in 1996 by a horrid Sixers team that hadn't topped 26 wins since the Barkley trade in '92, and hadn't been to the playoffs since '91. The roster was BAAAAAD. They made it into the playoffs in 1999, and Philly was respectable for five straight seasons (‘99-03), finishing over .500 and reaching the playoffs each year, and then usually making noise in the postseason (twice beating a higher seed in Round 1, never losing to a lower seed, and they squeaked into the Finals as the East’s #1 seed in ‘01).

You can think what you want about his awful shooting efficiencies and his often surly connections with his team, but the fact that he made the Sixers as good as they were for those five years was a herculean accomplishment that no other wing of that era could have topped in the same setting (not Carter, not McGrady, not Kobe).

Philly’s front office overreached and overpaid for almost everyone who took the court with Iverson, and it was not a good set of teammates for him. Had he switched places with Kobe in the late-90s and got to spend his prime with a great center like Shaq, Iverson would have had at least those three rings LA won and possibly more because I find it more likely that he would have meshed well with Shaq.

5) As you likely already know, his primary strengths were absurd speed and athleticism (best in NBA history) and his prolific scoring ability (four scoring titles, career 27 ppg, 30 ppg from ‘00-06). Iverson’s incredible shiftiness mixed with his “I’m going to embarrass you” mindset and elite hesitation crossover made him a nightmare to defend 1-on-1, and he attracted so much attention flying into the lane that he was able to create opportunities for his teammates. Iverson hit more tough buckets in traffic than almost any player ever, especially at the ends of games when his confidence and aggression earned a bunch of clutch wins.

His inconsistent shooting was well known (career 42% FG, 31% 3FG), so he was more than capable of shooting his team out of contests as he’d angrily go into “I’ll outscore everyone” mode. AI was regularly top-5 in spg, but he was also regularly top-10 in topg, and it’s been said more than a few times that he often played out of control.

6) Iverson might be more associated with a single season (‘01) than any other star ever. He led the league in scoring (31.1 ppg), steals (2.5 spg), won MVP in a landslide over peak Shaq and Duncan, carried a not-Finals-worthy team to the best record in the East (56-26) and into the Finals, and once there he had his most iconic game (Game 1: unexpected Sixers win in OT in LA over the HEAVILY favored Lakers by racking up 48 pts and 5 steals, plus AI had multiple clutch plays including the Ty Lue step-over bucket in the final minute of OT). It's the season we think of when we think of Iverson.

7) There were persistent discussions by the fans, media, and front office about him being traded away from the Sixers due to some combination of bad fit, bad attitude, crazy lifestyle, and bad shooting efficiencies, especially after the team fell off a cliff following the '03 season (Iverson missed 34 games in '04 as the team went 33-49). He was finally traded to Denver during the ‘07 season, and he was thisclose to being traded to the Pistons in 2000 (a clause in Matt Geiger’s contract stopped the deal), right before his amazing ‘01 season.

8) The pairing of high scorers Iverson and Carmelo Anthony in Denver was a really big deal at the time, seen as a duo who each demanded double teams and would cripple opposing defenses. In an expected-by-many twist, their two best scoring seasons together (‘07 and ‘08) were not the team’s best seasons, and they never won a playoff series together.

9) As fun as it was for fans to watch Vince Carter's post-prime career as he graciously accepted supporting roles on multiple teams, Iverson's post-prime career was really hard to watch as he kept demanding a central role on multiple teams well after his athleticism was no longer next-level. Whether it was his last partial season in Denver, his time in Detroit, his three games in Memphis, his curtain call in Philly, or even his two months on a second-tier Turkish team, Iverson’s days after ‘08 were cringey and unfortunate.

I'm curious when this clip is from, and I mean year/season, not which specific game.

Less than 1 week before the start of the 1948 NBL playoffs finals, the Minneapolis Lakers, led by George Mikan, entered the World Professional Basketball Tournament in Chicago where they won the 'world title' against the NY Rens on April 11. A week later they went on to win the NBL title against the Rochester Royals.

DICK BARNETT

• Syracuse Years (1959-61): CJ McCollum ^POR x Brent Barry ^LAC

  • Barnett began his career providing a scoring punch on a stacked Syracuse Nationals lineup. This is a team that went 45-30 and then although finishing below .500 the next season, went to the Conference Finals against the Boston Celtics where they lost in 5. Barnett's last game as a Nat was a 25-point scoring display.

• Lost Nationals Season (1961-62):

  • The Nationals went 41-39 with a 5-game loss in the Semis to a 50-ppg Wilt Chamberlain. With Barnett (likely being their 3rd leading scorer), they could've foisted the Warriors, and then matched up against Boston in another rematch. Instead, Barnett wanted to play for college coach John McClendon and joined the George Steinbrenner owned Cleveland Pipers of the newly formed ABL who promptly won the championship with Barnett as the league's 2nd leading scorer. After this, the Pipers signed Jerry Lucas, and were prepared to buy out the finals loser, Kansas City Steers, merge, and then join the NBA. They were also pursuing John Havlicek for an Ohio State trifecta. This is what a lineup could've looked like in 1962-63 (Win Shares attached)...

    • Centers: Tormohlen (~1) Dierking (0.3)

    • Forwards: Lucas (~9.5), Havlicek (6.4), Staverman (~2.4) Bridges (~1.8), Warley (~1)

    • Guards: Barnett (8.0), Barnhill (4.6), Seigfried (~2) Cox (0.5)

  • This team would have likely gone 39-41 and missed the playoffs in the 1962-63 season. They were fairly a young team as well, however, they likely would've faired worse with the relative same team in tact the next season (35-45 projection).

• Los Angeles Years (1962-65): Byron Scott ^LA x Wesley Mathews ^POR

  • He's more Mathews as a skillset, and Byron Scott as a spark-plug for the early Lakers. Both Scott and Barnett shared a very similar role within the franchise, making the Finals twice as a 3rd option between age 26-28.

• Knicks Prime Years (1965-71): Michael Finley ^dal/sas x Jason Richardson ^phx/orl/phi

  • A solid #3 contributor who can have really big nights and enjoy playing for a regular contender. Still, as storied as Barnett's career is, he doesn't really seem to fit that Hall-status that a perfect world would deploy.

• Twilight Years (1971-74): Kendall Gill ^chi/mil x John Starks ^uta

  • Offensive weapons fading into the last stages of their career. Each of the three still managed to put up a 20-point game during the proverbial final hours of their basketball journey. After that, there isn't much to speak of regarding enshrinement status for Barnett. The biggest tidbit of his pro career would've been to see what a Lucas/Havlicek/Barnett trio looked like (which may have coincidentally looked like today's Cleveland team with Mobley, Mitchell, and Garland).

Muggsy was never known as a big three point shooter in his career, taking 381 total 3 point attempts out of 6210 total shots. He also wasn't very good at making them, generally, only making 106 (.278 percentage for his career). Even with a season of "short 3" basketball under his belt, Muggsy had only 6 makes out of 30 tries in 94-95 before missing just about all of the '95-'96 season.

Coming back in the '96-'97 season, Muggy added a new weapon that he eventually used hard for about half of a season: the 3.

Muggsy went 60/144 from 3 in the 96-97 season, shooting 41.7% from 3. Yeah, other that season Muggsy shot 46/237 (19.4%) for the entirety of his career.

Let's break down Muggsy's bombing from 3:

Muggsy only shot 4/13 from 3 in the first 21 games of the season (November and December). Starting in January, his 3 point attempts went up:

• January: 6/14

• February: 22/51

• March: 20/42

• April (7 games): 8/24

Muggy came back from a couple of games off on January 10th and began to play substantial minutes for the most part starting January 12th. From that point until the end of the year, Muggsy took over 40% of his shots from 3 and made 43.8% of them! In that stretch, he averaged 8.9 PPG-7.5 APG in 30 minutes a night and the Hornets went 36-12 overall (32-9 in games Muggsy played) down the stretch as Glen Rice, Divac, etc. all got cooking as a team. The Hornets were looked at as a possible ECF contender given how hot they were in the 2nd half of the year.

Of course, all of that stretch was rendered moot as the Hornets lost to the Knicks (Muggsy had been hampered by a hamstring issue and missed a few games at the end of the regular season and missed 1 of the games in the Knicks series) in the 1st round of the playoffs.

With the 3 point line reverting back out to 23-9 the following year, Muggsy's shooting did not continue, only going 4/16 from 3 as he was eventually traded to Golden State.

Muggsy's 3 point barrage in '97 is arguably one of those underrated stat anomalies that doesn't get talked about a ton but is pretty cool to see.

WALTER DAVIS

• Phoenix Prime Years (1977-80): Ray Allen ^MIL x Paul George ^IND

  • We are looking at a guy who reached top 10 status in his first 3 years in the league. Allen at this point was a guy who could lead a team to a 7-game loss in the Conference Finals. George led a team to the same fate in the same scenario. Not-so-coincidentally did Davis do the same thing with the '79 Suns who fell to the Champion Sonics in 7 games. Davis averaged 22/5/5 in the series and shot 50%.

• Phoenix Vet Years (1980-88): Jerry Stackhouse ^det/was/dal x Rip Hamilton ^det/chi

  • Don't be shocked by the consistent 3-point marksman comparisons. Davis played in a stubborn era, but he led the Suns in 3pt attempts in 4 of these vet seasons. Davis was essentially a top 15-20 player for a decent contender that should have morphed into a valuable 6th man candidate for an even better contender, but instead languished on a Phoenix team that stopped being good after 1984 (partially b/c they relied on Davis as a top option late into his career).

• Denver Years (1988-90): Mitch Richmond ^WAS x Dominique Wilkins ^atl/lac/bos

  • Turns out that when you put The Greyhound in 6th man status, he looks like a phenomenal offensive player in bursts. Other close approximations were Grant Hill and Alex English (who he played a spelled role with in the late 80s/early 90s with Denver). It's clear by comparison that Davis was a special player.

• Twilight Years (1990-92): Dwyane Wade ^cle/mia x Alex English ^den/dal

  • Another ode to Davis' longevity as he's compared to some of the best as they grew fallible with age. Other similar contemporaries was Dale Ellis and John Havlicek who may or may not have had some astounding careers. Davis isn't remembered as fondly because he spent his entire Phoenix career with Alvan Adams, and a good chunk of it with Paul Westphal and Larry Nance. These are very talented players, but not the pieces you'd hope for when building a team that could go the distance.

Apologies if there has already been a thread on Estes. I'm used to seeing threads about players like Len Bias, Hank Gathers, and Reggie Lewis, but I can't remember any on this 1960s star.

On February 8th, 1965, Utah State senior made a pull-up jump shot to score his 48th point against an overmatched University of Denver team, after which his coach immediately pulled him from the game. Estes had just scored his 2000th and 2001st career point in college basketball. Unbeknownst to anyone at the time, those points would be his last. On the way home from a celebratory pizza, Estes and his friends pulled over to look at the site of a recent automobile accident. Estes, who was taller than the rest of his party, brushed his head against a power line that had been lowered by the crash. He was killed instantly.

A Remarkable Career

A sweet-shooting 6'6" forward, was lightly recruited out of high school. His 1,430 points were second in Anaconda High School history, behind future Minneapolis Laker forward Ed Kalafat and his 1,561. However, Anaconda was a small high school in Montana, a state that has never been a hotbed for college basketball prospects to begin with. Estes was also carrying somewhere around 255 pounds that have been charitably described as "football weight," and pessimistically as baby fat. The state's two Division I basketball teams, Montana and Montana State, both passed on Estes, but Utah State offered him a basketball scholarship.

Montana and Montana State very quickly reconsidered when Estes set a scoring record for USU's freshman team with 254 points--freshmen were not eligible at the time. Estes also slimmed down, losing somewhere between 20 and 45 points (sources differ). Both schools tried to recruit Estes, but Wayne stuck with Utah State. Wayne end his career as the school's all-time leader in points scored with 2001, and second in all-time rebounds with 893, behind only Cornell Green (yes, the same one who was a star for the Dallas Cowboys). His 26.7 PPG are still tops all-time for Utah State. He also made two NCAA tournament appearances.

Wayne Estes, NBA Prospect?

The primary argument for Estes as an NBA prospect was his scoring

• For his college career, Estes scored 26.7 PPG on 48.1% shooting

• During his senior year, Estes scored 33.7 PPG (second behind Rick Barry) on 48.6% shooting

• Estes shot 85.6% on free throws at Utah State, including 87.8% in his senior year

• Estes had an effective hook shot and jump shot, with great shooting range

• Estes averaged 11.9 rebounds per game in college, 13.9 in his senior year; described by contemporary sportswriters as a "rugged rebounder"

• Estes was very strong: he was recruited mostly as a football player and weight thrower out of high school, and he still holds the Anaconda High shot put record with a 59'4.5 throw"

• According to future Montana governor Judy Martz, who was Estes's girlfriend at the time, Bob Cousy said that Wayne could make it in the NBA, and that Cousy liked Estes's hands. This would have taken place when Estes scored 52 points against a Cousy-coached Boston College team.

Wayne Estes weaknesses

• Wasn't fast, quick, or a great leaper

• Wasn't known for his defense

• Kind of a tweener at 6'6" and 225-230 pounds. He would have been small for a power forward, but probably not athletic enough to guard pro players at SF

• Medical concerns: before and during his last game against Denver, Estes had complained of tingling and numbness in his hands

The Kalafat Comparison

• In high school, Estes failed to break the scoring record of 1,561 points set by Ed Kalafat a decade before

• Kalafat would go on to play 209 games for the Minneapolis Lakers, averaging 7.1 points and 5.7 rebounds over three seasons from 1954 to 1957.

• Kalafat and Wayne Estes were a similar size. Both stood 6'6"; Kalafat weighed 245 pounds in the NBA; Estes weighed a little more than that in high school and a little less in college.

• Kalafat played college basketball at Minnesota, where he averaged 14.5 PPG and 7.8 RPG on .367 FG% and .631 FT%

• Kalafat was playing in the Big 10, while Wayne played for independent Utah State

• College production does not always carry forward to the pros

• I believe that Estes was a late bloomer who clearly surpassed Kalafat as a college player, particularly on offense

How good do you think Wayne Estes would have been in the NBA?

That's primarily what I want to know. The LA Lakers had Wayne's territorial rights. They ended up drafting Hall of Fame guard Gail Goodrich, who had scored 24.8 PPG on 52.5% shooting and won a national championship with UCLA in his senior season. In Logan, Utah and Anaconda, MT, the oldheads will tell you that the Lakers were going to take Estes over Goodrich. Sitting at my keyboard in 2024, I can make a damn good argument for sticking with Goodrich, who was a fantastic player in his own right. (That is to say, I'm not looking to turn this into a Gail Goodrich hate thread; I have no interest in that.) The 1965 draft had 17 rounds, so I am 100% certain that Estes would have been drafted by somebody. Is there a good NBA comparison for him? Especially someone else who played in his era, or before the year 2000? Thanks in advance for your interest and expertise!

MICHAEL COOPER

• Early Years (1978-80): Wesley Matthews ^UTA x Ayo Dosunmu ^CHI

  • Coop's official rookie year was a wash since he only played 3 games. His true rookie season was at Age-23. One could surmise that he'd be on the All-Rookie-2nd-Team. Mathews was close and Dosunmu made it, and both players would in the future receive many all-defensive team votes. We knew Coop could be a good defender, but not nearly how good he'd actually be.

• Defensive Years (1980-88): Craig Ehlo ^cle/hou x Paul Pressey ^MIL

  • Not a surprise that Coop is most similar to another two standout defenders. He and Ehlo both played in exactly 873 regular season games. However, Ehlo & Pressey logged 76 and 75 playoff games respectively, whereas Cooper racked up 168. The depth of playing on the Lakers (5 championships, 6th man) is a bit different than the normal expectation (Ehlo: 3 Conference Finals, Starter) / (Pressey: 3 Conference Finals, Starter).

• Twilight Years (1988-90): Paul Pressey ^SA x Hersey Hawkins ^sea/chi

  • A winning player playing wind down years on a winning club, not to receive much playing time, but to provide a good locker room presence, effect the rooks, and get the veteran nod come playoff time. Coop opted out of LA to sign a 3-year deal in Italy, but only ended up fulfilling 1. That was about the lifespan he had left on his career if he stuck around. He could have maybe helped the 1991 Sixers handle the vicious Bulls wings in the semis or put a clamp on former teammates Worthy & Scott for the Warriors in the '91 playoffs.

Was Richie a legit NBA prospect where was he ranked in HS off course his NBA dreams stopped after he was charged with assault i remember it's was a big story back then .